Thank you Juliette for this — the clarity here feels both intellectually precise and strangely comforting. Your explanation of nested loops finally gave language to that hollow, irritated feeling that comes after doomscrolling: it’s not guilt, it’s violated expectation.
What resonated most for me was your distinction between pursuit and consumption, and how the feed fuses the worst of both. That framing helped me see how often I mistake effort for meaning — how much energy my brain expends simply responding to prompts rather than moving toward anything that can actually finish.
You have articulated the running-nowhere feeling of doomscrolling beautifully, Kunlun.
I am so glad the pursuit/consumption distinction has helped create a little more awareness. (Although I suspect you are always scrolling with intent, and already inherently protected 😊.)
That’s very kind, Juliette — and I appreciate the generous assumption about my scrolling intentions 😊 Though if I’m honest, even “intent” seems alarmingly easy to lose once the loops are in motion.
What your piece gave me was not just awareness, but permission to stop mid-loop without narrating it as a personal failure. Naming the mechanism makes it feel interruptible — which, ironically, is exactly the kind of closure the brain is looking for.
Really grateful for the language you’ve given us here.
I am curious about how the intermittent reward nature of the outcome influences this process. For a meta example: I found your substack, Juliette, through a random post you made on reddit related to a specific mental health matter; you linked to your substack in a comment after explaining a technique you used to ride out certain urges [being vague to protect privacy]. I spend a good amount of time on reddit, and ~80% of that time is sort of meh and uninformative and not worth the mind-glazing-over-effects...but that other 20%...it leads me to substacks like this! It enlightens me about some social movement I care about! It points me to a health resource I would never have otherwise found that change my life! (All these things are true and meaningful.) I suppose what I'm getting at is...how do you cope with this cycle of nested loops when, on occasion, the reward is sort of worth it?
My strategies right now are:
-Reddit only allowed when I am walking on my treadmill
-I only can scroll for 20 minutes and/or read 8 posts, whichever comes first
-mindful awareness of how horrid I feel when I mindlessly scroll; forgiveness and acceptance when I do
-alternative dopamine-inducing activities (of the cortical variety, if I am remembering your lesson right! a modestly challenging activity that gets me in the flow) when the urge is strong
The dopamine dip at these limits is real :)
Have you read The Molecule of More? I am starting to re-read it after going through all your posts. It's giving the book much more meaning and nuance. (Your posts are amazing and have had a huge impact on me this past week. So glad I found them.)
I am genuinely blown away by how thoughtfully you’re already implementing these ideas. Truly. (I’m very confident your brain would thank you, if it could.)
“How do you cope with this cycle of nested loops when, on occasion, the reward is actually worth it?”
This question is so insightful and important that it’s making me want to write an entire post around it. In fact, I’ve just finished revising an essay about my own experiment in turning doomscrolling from a maladaptive activity into something more protective — and you’re already doing about 85% of what I describe. How brilliant.
Your strategies are spot-on: bounded time, clear stopping rules (8 posts max), physical pairing with movement, and honest awareness of how the experience feels. You’ve intuitively grasped something crucial: these platforms are designed to steadily erode executive control over time, so preserving it often requires external structure.
The nested-loop problem you’ve identified is real. Sometimes that 20% genuinely valuable content does make the whole experience feel worthwhile. And you’re right: that value is real.
The difficulty is that it’s embedded in an environment where the remaining 80% quietly taxes attention and motivation.
One small addition that’s helped me think about this: when you find something truly valuable, capture it immediately (save the link, send it to yourself, bookmark it) but move the consumption to a different context later. A browser, email, or dedicated app. That way you extract the signal without paying the additional cost of prolonged exposure to the platform’s “while you’re here…” dynamics.
And that 20-minute limit isn’t arbitrary at all. Most people notice their ability to discriminate quality is strongest early in a session and degrades with time. The dip you feel when the timer goes off is real. And in a way, it’s evidence that the boundary is doing exactly what it’s meant to do. (And it shouldn't be like that forever! If you keep respecting the time limit, your brain will adjust to the new cue to stop and theoretically, it should one day soon feel almost satisfying to stop when the timer goes off. Theoretically...)
Your awareness of all this, and the way you’re already working with it rather than against it, is genuinely impressive. This is what agency looks like in practice.
The Molecule of More was one of my earliest reads too. I'm so glad you brought it up. I found it fascinating, but also found myself wishing it went deeper into the underlying mechanics. (Lieberman’s “desire” and “control” dopamine map very closely onto limbic and cortical dynamics, as you’ve no doubt already gleaned.)
I’m so glad the posts have been meaningful. Comments and experiences like yours are why I write these. Thank you.
This is a fantastic reply -- thank you!! It's funny, all of my interest in this came years ago through intuitive eating -- namely this program's idea that we need to bring self-awareness to how we're actually feeling rather than what a diet/society tells us to do. Judson Brewer's book on The Hunger Habit really affirmed this. So, related to your comment: I find that also being very aware of how activities are making me feel can alter the assigned value of any activity. Remaining present when, for example, you are scrolling is SO HARD because the point of the activity is mindlessness.
Lately it’s helped me to think of rewards like they talk about retirement (“retire TO something rather than retire FROM something to keep your mind engaged”):
When you have an unhealthy urge, I step TOWARD a new (cortical-dopamine-stimulating) activity rather than AWAY from the urge. The latter action (step away) is sort of non-specific and I always wiggle out of it. Stepping TOWARD something allows me to consider my menu of activities that feeling modestly challenging and achievement-oriented — and I learned through self-awareness how rewarding such a step is, what activities work best, etc…. What your post helped me see is: when I step TOWARD a value-rich activity then I am experiencing that cortical-originating dopamine that feels so peaceful, long-lasting, and slow-fading. I love that I now know why this works — keeps me all the more motivated. It also has really ramped up my self-awareness activities. I do not want those dopamine spikes! I want chronically elevated tonic dopamine that, in slow waves, moves me productively (but gently) through my day!
I do have a question…(and ignore this, I’m taking up a lot of your time)…If I could go back to your previous post on rewiring cues....you mentioned that your daughter now associates the 'snick' of the soda (which spikes dopamine and creates reward-seeking behavior) with an opportunity to gain reward through a fancy high five. Awesome! My question is...would that urge persist because it's now married with an alternative pleasurable activity? In other words, how is pairing a dopamine-rich activity that's heathy with an urge not training that urge to stick around...I know it's wonky to think "soda craving --> high five craving --> high five reward" - but is that not what's being trained? Would not the brain keep generating the soda craving even though it leads to a mismatched-but-pleasurable reward?
My cortical-generated-dopamine activity for today and tomorrow is to re-read all your posts to try to figure this out on my own :)
That post-scroll emptiness is something I think a lot of people silently carry without really understanding why, and naming it can be surprisingly relieving. And you're absolutely right about the parallel to hyper-palatable foods. Both hijack the same ancient system in eerily similar ways. (It makes me wish they taught this stuff in schools!)
I really appreciate you taking the time to share this reflection.
Thank you Juliette for this — the clarity here feels both intellectually precise and strangely comforting. Your explanation of nested loops finally gave language to that hollow, irritated feeling that comes after doomscrolling: it’s not guilt, it’s violated expectation.
What resonated most for me was your distinction between pursuit and consumption, and how the feed fuses the worst of both. That framing helped me see how often I mistake effort for meaning — how much energy my brain expends simply responding to prompts rather than moving toward anything that can actually finish.
You have articulated the running-nowhere feeling of doomscrolling beautifully, Kunlun.
I am so glad the pursuit/consumption distinction has helped create a little more awareness. (Although I suspect you are always scrolling with intent, and already inherently protected 😊.)
That’s very kind, Juliette — and I appreciate the generous assumption about my scrolling intentions 😊 Though if I’m honest, even “intent” seems alarmingly easy to lose once the loops are in motion.
What your piece gave me was not just awareness, but permission to stop mid-loop without narrating it as a personal failure. Naming the mechanism makes it feel interruptible — which, ironically, is exactly the kind of closure the brain is looking for.
Really grateful for the language you’ve given us here.
I am curious about how the intermittent reward nature of the outcome influences this process. For a meta example: I found your substack, Juliette, through a random post you made on reddit related to a specific mental health matter; you linked to your substack in a comment after explaining a technique you used to ride out certain urges [being vague to protect privacy]. I spend a good amount of time on reddit, and ~80% of that time is sort of meh and uninformative and not worth the mind-glazing-over-effects...but that other 20%...it leads me to substacks like this! It enlightens me about some social movement I care about! It points me to a health resource I would never have otherwise found that change my life! (All these things are true and meaningful.) I suppose what I'm getting at is...how do you cope with this cycle of nested loops when, on occasion, the reward is sort of worth it?
My strategies right now are:
-Reddit only allowed when I am walking on my treadmill
-I only can scroll for 20 minutes and/or read 8 posts, whichever comes first
-mindful awareness of how horrid I feel when I mindlessly scroll; forgiveness and acceptance when I do
-alternative dopamine-inducing activities (of the cortical variety, if I am remembering your lesson right! a modestly challenging activity that gets me in the flow) when the urge is strong
The dopamine dip at these limits is real :)
Have you read The Molecule of More? I am starting to re-read it after going through all your posts. It's giving the book much more meaning and nuance. (Your posts are amazing and have had a huge impact on me this past week. So glad I found them.)
I am genuinely blown away by how thoughtfully you’re already implementing these ideas. Truly. (I’m very confident your brain would thank you, if it could.)
“How do you cope with this cycle of nested loops when, on occasion, the reward is actually worth it?”
This question is so insightful and important that it’s making me want to write an entire post around it. In fact, I’ve just finished revising an essay about my own experiment in turning doomscrolling from a maladaptive activity into something more protective — and you’re already doing about 85% of what I describe. How brilliant.
Your strategies are spot-on: bounded time, clear stopping rules (8 posts max), physical pairing with movement, and honest awareness of how the experience feels. You’ve intuitively grasped something crucial: these platforms are designed to steadily erode executive control over time, so preserving it often requires external structure.
The nested-loop problem you’ve identified is real. Sometimes that 20% genuinely valuable content does make the whole experience feel worthwhile. And you’re right: that value is real.
The difficulty is that it’s embedded in an environment where the remaining 80% quietly taxes attention and motivation.
One small addition that’s helped me think about this: when you find something truly valuable, capture it immediately (save the link, send it to yourself, bookmark it) but move the consumption to a different context later. A browser, email, or dedicated app. That way you extract the signal without paying the additional cost of prolonged exposure to the platform’s “while you’re here…” dynamics.
And that 20-minute limit isn’t arbitrary at all. Most people notice their ability to discriminate quality is strongest early in a session and degrades with time. The dip you feel when the timer goes off is real. And in a way, it’s evidence that the boundary is doing exactly what it’s meant to do. (And it shouldn't be like that forever! If you keep respecting the time limit, your brain will adjust to the new cue to stop and theoretically, it should one day soon feel almost satisfying to stop when the timer goes off. Theoretically...)
Your awareness of all this, and the way you’re already working with it rather than against it, is genuinely impressive. This is what agency looks like in practice.
The Molecule of More was one of my earliest reads too. I'm so glad you brought it up. I found it fascinating, but also found myself wishing it went deeper into the underlying mechanics. (Lieberman’s “desire” and “control” dopamine map very closely onto limbic and cortical dynamics, as you’ve no doubt already gleaned.)
I’m so glad the posts have been meaningful. Comments and experiences like yours are why I write these. Thank you.
This is a fantastic reply -- thank you!! It's funny, all of my interest in this came years ago through intuitive eating -- namely this program's idea that we need to bring self-awareness to how we're actually feeling rather than what a diet/society tells us to do. Judson Brewer's book on The Hunger Habit really affirmed this. So, related to your comment: I find that also being very aware of how activities are making me feel can alter the assigned value of any activity. Remaining present when, for example, you are scrolling is SO HARD because the point of the activity is mindlessness.
Lately it’s helped me to think of rewards like they talk about retirement (“retire TO something rather than retire FROM something to keep your mind engaged”):
When you have an unhealthy urge, I step TOWARD a new (cortical-dopamine-stimulating) activity rather than AWAY from the urge. The latter action (step away) is sort of non-specific and I always wiggle out of it. Stepping TOWARD something allows me to consider my menu of activities that feeling modestly challenging and achievement-oriented — and I learned through self-awareness how rewarding such a step is, what activities work best, etc…. What your post helped me see is: when I step TOWARD a value-rich activity then I am experiencing that cortical-originating dopamine that feels so peaceful, long-lasting, and slow-fading. I love that I now know why this works — keeps me all the more motivated. It also has really ramped up my self-awareness activities. I do not want those dopamine spikes! I want chronically elevated tonic dopamine that, in slow waves, moves me productively (but gently) through my day!
I do have a question…(and ignore this, I’m taking up a lot of your time)…If I could go back to your previous post on rewiring cues....you mentioned that your daughter now associates the 'snick' of the soda (which spikes dopamine and creates reward-seeking behavior) with an opportunity to gain reward through a fancy high five. Awesome! My question is...would that urge persist because it's now married with an alternative pleasurable activity? In other words, how is pairing a dopamine-rich activity that's heathy with an urge not training that urge to stick around...I know it's wonky to think "soda craving --> high five craving --> high five reward" - but is that not what's being trained? Would not the brain keep generating the soda craving even though it leads to a mismatched-but-pleasurable reward?
My cortical-generated-dopamine activity for today and tomorrow is to re-read all your posts to try to figure this out on my own :)
This was a fascinating read!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it.
Thank you for such a thoughtful comment.
That post-scroll emptiness is something I think a lot of people silently carry without really understanding why, and naming it can be surprisingly relieving. And you're absolutely right about the parallel to hyper-palatable foods. Both hijack the same ancient system in eerily similar ways. (It makes me wish they taught this stuff in schools!)
I really appreciate you taking the time to share this reflection.